[-vQt-]

Ok this is very risky but
Could gods existant be a prank made by mortal men to enslave human kind
No offense but here are my thoughts

Bible supposingly was made by god
Objection:the base products paper ink etc are from earth no essence of holy in there last time i checked.

Jesus was resurected
Objection: Where is he now and if he is going to come back then when , no answer thought so the bible is very blunt on that topic

God gave us a choice
Objection: Yep for a god to supposingly gain power he needs followers so
originally how does he control us if we didnt know of his existance there fore someone will throw in the old FAITH excuse *cough* giving us a choice ment that he in turn need not exists confused good im saying if we can choose can we choose to be a god ourself eep cults lol

There is heaven and hell -the white light at the end of the tunnel
Objections: Science OOOOO< most religions hate this has proven that it is the brains fault you see the white light depletion of oxygen to the brain causes the tunnel vison and the white light of course the light from outside, the religious symbols of course your entire life you have been taught about these its a natural instinct. Oh also the "i saw my life pass my eyes" oh tricky but easily answered the lack of oxygen causes your brains to send random electric shocks triggerign past memories to go spastic and pop up << hard to expalin that but thats why you see that.

Well so far they are my objections and thougths feel free to explain to me about your thougths and yes this may becoem a debate lol oh btw i do have some understanding of the bible pls dont comment about that eg" blah blah blah its not like that its liek this " thats not a rebuttl thats bickering

This post has been edited by -vQt-: Aug 3 2008, 12:14 PM

[Gah!IYA...]

hun listen, its silly to say that god made the paper and prited the ink in the bible, what is ment by "God made the bible" is that the stories in it, the stories told by christan followers of juses and god, its well know that juses n god did not make the paper, but juses and god DID create the world and the trees and recorces to make the bibles

And juses is in heaven with his father, juses will return whe the time is right, and the reason y the bible is very blunt on it even juses dosnet know when he will return he will come when he is REALLY needed

and god DOSENT controll us, we make the choice our selfs to follow him, we make the choice to answer the door when juses knocks on it

and scientists are synics who want to prov every thing dosent exsits, when i am in church what i feel is more then what the body can make one feel

look i can answer thease questions over and over again, the the sacrifice made for me YOU and everyONE by juses is some thing i cannot ever forget, i know they exsit, cozz of the feeling i get when i am in church, the day i gave up my life to them, their presence i knew was real, i knew it was their, i just trust in them i really do, i believe juses is my healer you can believe what you want, if you truly want thease questions answered i can introduce you to the one person who converted me

i love you hun

[Sam]

Juses?

[kiki]

Not meaning to be offensive, but of all the cases trying to disprove religion... yours is by far the weakest. There are so many more ways to try and suggest that God doesn't exist. But regardless of your viewpoint, there is always a chance that God does exist. Science can rule out many "myths" and "stories" in the bible as impossible, but science can't for sure say that there is no superbeing somewhere, doing something.
Oh and another thing, I don't think its hypocritical to believe in Science and Religion.
And since when, was Jesus, Juses?

[Gah!IYA...]

Jesus* i was tired! and upset!

This post has been edited by Gah!IYA><: Aug 4 2008, 12:20 AM

[-vQt-]

all i want is proff doesnt matter if weak or strong argument gosh u havent put any rebutuls up all youve done is comment on spelling until. And right now im unsure which side are you on if neutral then stop spamming my topic and commenting on spelling ....

hun listen, its silly to say that god made the paper and prited the ink in the bible, what is ment by "God made the bible" is that the stories in it, the stories told by christan followers of juses and god, its well know that juses n god did not make the paper, but juses and god DID create the world and the trees and recorces to make the bibles

And juses is in heaven with his father, juses will return whe the time is right, and the reason y the bible is very blunt on it even juses dosnet know when he will return he will come when he is REALLY needed

and god DOSENT controll us, we make the choice our selfs to follow him, we make the choice to answer the door when juses knocks on it

and scientists are synics who want to prov every thing dosent exsits, when i am in church what i feel is more then what the body can make one feel

look i can answer thease questions over and over again, the the sacrifice made for me YOU and everyONE by juses is some thing i cannot ever forget, i know they exsit, cozz of the feeling i get when i am in church, the day i gave up my life to them, their presence i knew was real, i knew it was their, i just trust in them i really do, i believe juses is my healer you can believe what you want, if you truly want thease questions answered i can introduce you to the one person who converted me

i love you hun

dont recall sayign he controlled us its that there is noone to control us
hehe confused

[chicken wing]

this is a very interesting topic you have posted VQT. If you are really interested in finding out what the christian side/evidence is for the existence for God and Religion i suggest you have a look at the following books:

"Mirror Christianity" by C.S. Lewis (yes the same auther as the narnia series)

"A reason for god" by Tim Keller

"A case for christ" by Lee Strobel

There is supprisingly a lot of evidence supporting christianitly. Especially the bible. Here is a quick over view.

1. Reliable manuscripts: Original documents have been found of the New Testiment. More than about 500 copies have been found, spanning more than 250 years between them. These copies have been compared to each other. They have discovered that between all of the original copies found, there are only 8 mistakes per copy, and most of these mistakes are obvious typos such as spelling mistakes. These variations dont have any impact on the major teaching of christianity..

2. Reliable History. Events from the bible have been backed up with evidence such as relics found in the dead sea.There is an isolated tribe near where jesus was reserected, that has documented events on walls of caves of the comming of jesus christ.

3. Reliable prophesies. The bible contains over 2,500 prophesies, and already 2,000 of these have been forfilled. i cant remember any now though.

4. Reliable consistency. There are 40 different authors in the bible, who have all come from different backgrounds, and different erras. all talking about the same thing. In deutaronomy? in the old testiment it talks about the comming of jesus hundreds of years later. The books in the bible are eye witness accounts of events such as the comming of jesus. Yes the bible isnt "physically" written by god, but god spoke to these authors (yes even through bushes) and they have recorded his word.

Also, many scientists have began to believe in the bible based on scientific evidence that they have discoverd. cant remember any names at the moment either. (i am really terrible with names lol).

In revelations, it discusses the return of christ to earth. it says that he will come at the end of the earth down from heaven. It says that if we trust in god we will recognise the "true" jesus from all those who claim to be jesus.

God gave us not just a choice, but a free will. He cannot control our minds. Yes the bible, and much of christianity discusses that the holy spirit is within us, and guide us. but it only guides us if we believe, and listen to us and let it guide us.

So have a search, have a look at the books that i have suggested, and i am interested in hearing your comments on this

[-vQt-]

this is a very interesting topic you have posted VQT. If you are really interested in finding out what the christian side/evidence is for the existence for God and Religion i suggest you have a look at the following books:

"Mirror Christianity" by C.S. Lewis (yes the same auther as the narnia series)

"A reason for god" by Tim Keller

"A case for christ" by Lee Strobel

There is supprisingly a lot of evidence supporting christianitly. Especially the bible. Here is a quick over view.

1. Reliable manuscripts: Original documents have been found of the New Testiment. More than about 500 copies have been found, spanning more than 250 years between them. These copies have been compared to each other. They have discovered that between all of the original copies found, there are only 8 mistakes per copy, and most of these mistakes are obvious typos such as spelling mistakes. These variations dont have any impact on the major teaching of christianity..

2. Reliable History. Events from the bible have been backed up with evidence such as relics found in the dead sea.There is an isolated tribe near where jesus was reserected, that has documented events on walls of caves of the comming of jesus christ.

3. Reliable prophesies. The bible contains over 2,500 prophesies, and already 2,000 of these have been forfilled. i cant remember any now though.

4. Reliable consistency. There are 40 different authors in the bible, who have all come from different backgrounds, and different erras. all talking about the same thing. In deutaronomy? in the old testiment it talks about the comming of jesus hundreds of years later. The books in the bible are eye witness accounts of events such as the comming of jesus. Yes the bible isnt "physically" written by god, but god spoke to these authors (yes even through bushes) and they have recorded his word.

Also, many scientists have began to believe in the bible based on scientific evidence that they have discoverd. cant remember any names at the moment either. (i am really terrible with names lol).

In revelations, it discusses the return of christ to earth. it says that he will come at the end of the earth down from heaven. It says that if we trust in god we will recognise the "true" jesus from all those who claim to be jesus.

God gave us not just a choice, but a free will. He cannot control our minds. Yes the bible, and much of christianity discusses that the holy spirit is within us, and guide us. but it only guides us if we believe, and listen to us and let it guide us.

So have a search, have a look at the books that i have suggested, and i am interested in hearing your comments on this

yai a person that acually understands this topic ah some good points you have but i state again that this may be the biggest prank in the world think about it if you gather enough people it is possible to make such an elaborate prank that could con people into such thoughts of existance of god eg what if i write a book and got hell the whole of australia to believe in it lol Scienctology now lets image i bury this book in certain places all around the world and poof 400 yrs later i just created me a new religion < well not as simple but is plausable. Ah about the prophocies they are very vague a person with knowledge of past events may be able to alraedy predict the future something i discussed in philospy a person with knowledge of past is capable of using variables :hmm:to predict the future

[chicken wing]

hmm yeh i have never really been keen on prophesies full stop. However i believe it was not a "prank" as you say. I dont think when people thousands of years ago wrote those books of the bible that they expected some of them to still exist today.

I do agree that scientology is a load of crap. all the smart people know it was created by a sciencefiction writer.(haha suck tom cruze you crack pot!)

but i seriously suggest you look at the books i suggested. even if you dont believe some of the stuff in them, you will find them an interesting read

[-vQt-]

hmm yeh i have never really been keen on prophesies full stop. However i believe it was not a "prank" as you say. I dont think when people thousands of years ago wrote those books of the bible that they expected some of them to still exist today.

I do agree that scientology is a load of crap. all the smart people know it was created by a sciencefiction writer.(haha suck tom cruze you crack pot!)

but i seriously suggest you look at the books i suggested. even if you dont believe some of the stuff in them, you will find them an interesting read

ok prank was to harsh of a word con purhaps would fit this topic lol not only tom cruise john travolta lol. hey you would be amazed at what people dont expect 60 years ago people didnt belive man would go into space but wow

[chicken wing]

hahaha yeh true. but remember there are so many things out there that science cant prove......

what came before the big bang?

[kimbanator]

and isn't the chemistry they still teach in high school all wrong, so they teach you another type in Uni?????

[Fedora.Pirate]

It's called lies to children it's an important part of all education. Simplifying a concept so that it can be fully understand, so the more advanced next level concept can be introduced and understood. Can you imagine if they taught university level physics and chemistry from the start, when you're in kindergarten or primary school? Why should high school be any different.

[Sam]

I personally went to a very religious school during primary school. To me it seemed like a whole lot of brainswashing. I ended up leaving around year 4 but I just find it all ridiculous. But at the same time I have a number of religious friends who I support fully for their beliefs providing they support my beliefs as well.

[Kelevra]

Holy fuck ive never heard a bigger bunch of bullshit in my life. I thought religious people denied the validity of carbon dating and shit like that because scientists have their own agendas? Trust me it definitely takes a truly special person to believe that a man gathered 2 of every species on the planet and fit them on a boat, but i digress.

Evolution isn't as solid as people think either. For instance, no one knows how the first proteins combined together to form amino acids without help from RNA and DNA, even the simplest amino acids have 77 proteins (imagine playing a poker machine with 77 slots on it, how many spins do you think it would take to get 77 7's?).

In the end no theory will be universally accepted by everyone because it's just too hard to convince everyone of the same thing. But what i don't appreciate is your agenda being pushed on me, so take your bible pamphlets somewhere else.

[Kelevra]

hahaha yeh true. but remember there are so many things out there that science cant prove......

what came before the big bang?

What a moronic question, go do some research before spouting your idiotic questions which i have little doubt you think will stump any uninformed person. I'll try and explain but :

The main theory is that there have been many big bangs, this bang produced what is known as the goldilocks effect (just right). Anyway Noone knows exactly how many big bangs there were but they didn't expand like the one we live in did, they either collapsed upon themselves or dialated so preposterously that no elements could combine to form other elements( who says there is only one universe anyway? there could be millions and we happen to live in one of the habitable ones)

In the end we are nothing but the result of diminishing probabilities im sorry to say, so enjoy it while it lasts instead of thinkng about where you came from and trying to convince other people to waster their lives.

[Fedora.Pirate]

Evolution isn't as solid as people think either. For instance, no one knows how the first proteins combined together to form amino acids without help from RNA and DNA, even the simplest amino acids have 77 proteins (imagine playing a poker machine with 77 slots on it, how many spins do you think it would take to get 77 7's?).

I don't think that that really matters all that much, sure it's a ridiculously low chance but if it's given enough opportunities to occur then eventually it's bound to, and when you consider the sheer size of the universe and total number of planets the probability of it occurring somewhere quickly becomes almost certain.

[slurpee]

Evolution isn't as solid as people think either. For instance, no one knows how the first proteins combined together to form amino acids without help from RNA and DNA, even the simplest amino acids have 77 proteins (imagine playing a poker machine with 77 slots on it, how many spins do you think it would take to get 77 7's?).

LOL, proteins are made from amino acids, so *farting noise* on your evoloution flaws.

Now im pretty sure you ment the same thing but swaping the words amino acids and proteins so in responce to that; your making an assumption that the first proteins and DNA etc were as complex as they are today. Whos to say the first proteins in our evoloution were this complex. Secondly your talking chicken and the egg theory, before DNA? whos to say it wasnt progressive one change influencing a change in the other until we have the end product (so far) of today. The complexity of biological functions may seem improbable but given 3.5 billion years its not that unbeleavable.

Also further more with the chicken and the egg; RNA solves this problem as it both stores genetic information and is envolved in chemical reactions such as the production of poly peptide chains (strings of amino acides or 'proteins') thus performing the tasks of both. RNA is where it probably started.

This post has been edited by slurpee: Aug 5 2008, 04:02 AM

[Kelevra]

yeah sorry i got them mixed up, but im human so there you go.

i said the most basic proteins are 77 amino acids not the proteins we have in our body today. i never said chicken and egg but theres no theory on how it happened and thats all i meant.

I know what you mean Fedora pirate and i agree, but let me make something abundantly clear, all i meant by what i said is that no theory on where we came is perfect and it never will be, and arguing the point with the facts we have now is fruitless

[Fridgemagnet]

This one's interesting. First, taking the assumption that there is no God.
Psychologically speaking, man is quite likely to form some manner of religious belief as soon as he starts comtemplating the concept of death, or his origins. This sort of thing can easily happen at a tribal level, and has probably been seen before. Personally, I consider a development of this idea much more likely than somebody starting a religion as a method of control (ie. a prank, con or whatever).
The reason for this is that we started out as tribal communities, and to simply develop and spread a religion as a nation develops. Plus, they should know about our tribe's religion so they can be saved, right? Now, there are times when religion has been used as a method of control, of course. The catholic church was one of the most powerful organisations in its day, and they weren't exactly giving their money all away.

So whether or not our religions are truthful, I think it unlikely that they started out as a hoax.

Personally, my biggest issue philosophically with God is that of free will. The reason is, if he knows everything, he knows the future and the past. If he knows the future, he knows what I'm going to do. If he knows what I'm going to do, I don't really seem to have much of a say in it anymore. However, if he literally just gave up some of this power and knowledge to give us free will, it's a little bit more possible.
I don't want to believe that there is an omnipotent, omniscient God out there, regardless of good and evil.

EDIT--> Also, if you look around and find out about the origins of the assassins, there is some interesting large scale hoaxes that they pulled off by drugging people and taking them to a garden where they were waited on by virgins. Not much in the wiki article here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hashshashin
but I'm sure you could find out more about it somewhere on the net.

This post has been edited by Fridgemagnet: Aug 6 2008, 10:34 AM