[roboito]

It's Soo Fucking Annoying That I use an American flag in my solo as a prop. An the other day SHOCK HORROR I left it on the floor, my Dad came and cut sick at me for the lack of respect. Now this is the first time I've had this experience, of someone coming to me and expecting me to share their beliefs and being insulted that I don't.

Which prompted these thoughts...
I don't give a shit if the American flag touches the ground, cause I dont believe that a piece of material being scrunched up deminishes America that much, I don't think it really cares, I also think at this point i'm doing far less damge scrunching an American flag than the people running around out there using it as there own personal cure all. The people screaming to high heavens "god bless america" and saluting the flag and letting out a single tear.


I'm not proud of this country...I don't agree with alotta shit this place does, so I'm not going to run around going 'Woo AUSTRALIA!'. I am proud of alot of people in this country, But i'm not interested in protecting the Australeana side of things. I'm not interested in saying "Australia is the best country in the world' or screaming it with green and gold face paint. We're just a group of people in one place, I don't feel connected to all of you, I don't know you all. Can we just stop buying and selling this phony concept of patriotism...I'm just sick of it...

This is the country that has only existed for a couple of hundred years, a 'country' thats formation led to the repression and in some cases almost extinction of a whole race of people.

I think its time to sto[ dragging around these stupid 'This country deserves respect' ideal. We're wasting valuable time praising ourselves, rather than trying to fix the flaws.

[evil]

About the flag scrunched up on the ground -- that reminds me of how angry my Jewschool teachers got on more than one occasion when my kippah (head cap/hat thing) accidentally fell off my head and onto the ground. Total blasphemy, right? Just because it was windy and something fell off my head, it doesn't mean I'm a bad Jew! Eating bacon every weekend is what makes me a bad Jew.

[CaptainCalami...]

Jordan, that's awful! Those animals don't need to die.
Anyway.

Agreed, patriotism is some messed up shit.

It's the reason it's so easy to propagate this whitebread, chickenshit old school idea that "White is right".
Just call it patriotism, and it's all about saving the farm.

I have no patriotism, no faith in borders.

6.6 billion human beings on this earth.
Nothing divides us, save for our own egos.

This post has been edited by CaptainCalamity: Oct 15 2008, 08:49 AM

[CH!MP]

Can we just stop buying and selling this phony concept of patriotism...I'm just sick of it...

lol wtf...you're just as self-righteous at the uber patriots out there. I agree with you in the case of your example, but patriotism is completely natural in my eyes. Until we reach the end-point of globalisation and the entire world becomes a homogenized single state where everyone is the same, people are going to have national identities of sorts.

This is the country that has only existed for a couple of hundred years, a 'country' thats formation led to the repression and in some cases almost extinction of a whole race of people.

How long does it take before a nation is allowed to be proud of what it is? I think you should let people know when it's okay to have a sense of national pride. Perhaps they've jumped the gun by a few hundred years or something...

I think its time to sto[ dragging around these stupid 'This country deserves respect' ideal. We're wasting valuable time praising ourselves, rather than trying to fix the flaws.

Because respect for other nations is wrong....mmk then. Also i guess you'll be spending your whole life working in humanitarianism donating all your money to poor countries/australians? I'm not saying the world isn't fucked up, but i don't think problems around the world should cause us all to stop supporting our country in sports n stuff and talk up our nation. Once again my opinion of myself as a pessimist is put to the test compared to people round here lol.

It's the reason it's so easy to propagate this whitebread, chickenshit old school idea that "White is right".
Just call it patriotism, and it's all about saving the farm.

true...but i think you'll find pretty much every country is patriotic, not just white ones. So not sure what your point is there. Some people are racist fucks...that doesn't mean patriotism is stupid.

[CaptainCalami...]

What I mean is exactly this:
Racism and patriotism go hand in hand.

White bread doesn't just mean white people.
It just means generic, regular, not different.

It strikes me as odd that you'd assume I wasn't referring to my darker brethren.
CH!MP, are you sure you didn't know exactly what I meant?

Maybe you were just being picky.

[CH!MP]

What I mean is exactly this:
Racism and patriotism go hand in hand.

White bread doesn't just mean white people.
It just means generic, regular, not different.

It strikes me as odd that you'd assume I wasn't referring to my darker brethren.
CH!MP, are you sure you didn't know exactly what I meant?

Maybe you were just being picky.

well ok, lets say racism is extreme patriotism. I don't see how that automatically makes patriotism negative, as something to be discouraged.

I'm sorry i associated the term "white is right" with white racism lol. But again, the fact that something stems from patriotism doesn't make patriotism itself inherently wrong. Perhaps there is a misunderstanding though.

I think the difference in opinion here is that i don't think the fact that these things go hand in hand (to an extent) makes patriotism something to be discouraged and looked down upon. I don't particularly see patriotism solely as a tool for evil.

However, i'd appreciate further explanation of "6.6 billion human beings on this earth. Nothing divides us, save for our own egos" though.

[roboito]

Well I guess CH!MP it's time to forget the whole wiped out the natural owners of this land thing, I guess we shouldn't bother thinking about things that happened like two hundred years ago...But sadly enough the repression of the Aboriganal people still continues and living standards for Aboriganal people across the board is terrible. No I'm not going to be proud of that, I'm not going to be proud that I live in a country that doesn't recognse me or my right to be married to the person that I love, that doesn't give women the right to choose if they wish to have a child or not...these are not things I will be proud of, or wave a flag for.

"Also i guess you'll be spending your whole life working in humanitarianism donating all your money to poor countries/australians? I'm not saying the world isn't fucked up, but i don't think problems around the world should cause us all to stop supporting our country in sports n stuff and talk up our nation. Once again my opinion of myself as a pessimist is put to the test compared to people round here lol."

When I said 'I think its time to sto[ dragging around these stupid 'This country deserves respect' ideal. We're wasting valuable time praising ourselves, rather than trying to fix the flaws.' I was refering to how elections are won based on a politicians abilty to appeal to our love of this great land etc etc, This is a waste of time, how about talking about important issues, rather than giving the Australian people a blow job every 4 years.
SPORTS'n'STUFF, well'n'stuff i guess cheering for a group of people who I am not, doing things I am not doing really is a great idea...Sports'n'stuff...what is that...I hate that concept...AUSTRALIA WON TODAY...noooo, one guy/girl won...that is what happened, you just watched on the television, YOU HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT....sorry i mean Nothing'n'stuff to do with it.

Patriotism does nothing by widen the devides, it infers an understanding of suppiority...

This post has been edited by roboito: Oct 15 2008, 10:45 AM

[CaptainCalami...]

CH!MP, it's really very simple.

We're not different.
Cell by cell, we remain the same.

But we, as nations and individuals, consider ourselves, smarter than, better than all others.

[CH!MP]

Well I guess CH!MP it's time to forget the whole wiped out the natural owners of this land thing, I guess we shouldn't bother thinking about things that happened like two hundred years ago...But sadly enough the repression of the Aboriganal people still continues and living standards for Aboriganal people across the board is terrible. No I'm not going to be proud of that, I'm not going to be proud that I live in a country that doesn't recognse me or my right to be married to the person that I love, that doesn't give women the right to choose if they wish to have a child or not...these are not things I will be proud of, or wave a flag for.

well the thing is the form of patriotism most common is not of people saying "hey i love how we suppressed aboriginies", but i'm assuming you think being patrotic and ignoring these kind of issues is what's bad. i respect that. I know our nation was established at the great expense of another group of people. But it's not as if i should feel directly responsible for the actions of white people before me. I don't think modern patriotism represents being proud of everything about a country, but rather what it has become, for better or worse. Personally i think we have it pretty good compared to most nations out there. There is never going to be a perfect Utopian society where everyone is proud of everything. I'm not going to go against my own country as a whole because there are flaws.

When I said 'I think its time to sto[ dragging around these stupid 'This country deserves respect' ideal. We're wasting valuable time praising ourselves, rather than trying to fix the flaws.' I was refering to how elections are won based on a politicians abilty to appeal to our love of this great land etc etc, This is a waste of time, how about talking about important issues, rather than giving the Australian people a blow job every 4 years.

So politicians aren't supposed to appeal to people about things....concerning the people they are going to govern in the country they are going to govern? Yeah elections are pretty stupid in general and (arguably) not that much gets done in the end. I don't necessarily agree with all the "important issues" raised but newsflash: a lot of people have differing opinions of what is important. Obviously politicians are going to debate who's policies are more beneficial to the general public...that's how democracy works. This is the biggest link i can find between patriotism and elections.

SPORTS'n'STUFF, well'n'stuff i guess cheering for a group of people who I am not, doing things I am not doing really is a great idea...Sports'n'stuff...what is that...I hate that concept...AUSTRALIA WON TODAY...noooo, one guy/girl won...that is what happened, you just watched on the television, YOU HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT....sorry i mean Nothing'n'stuff to do with it.

This just demonstrates how you're sitting on your high horse, towering above the idiotic masses supporting their nation. See the fact that people have nothing to do with a sporting result is the whole point. There's a sense of community and pride. If you don't feel that then ok. But don't try and portray people with some level of patriotism as below you. Then again that "n stuff" thing pretty much demonstrates your view of yourself being above others, which ironically contradicts all the "i hate inequality in our nation" jargon.

edit: and i pretty much agree with that comment, CaptainCalamity, though i'm not sure about better than "all" others to the same extent you believe.

This post has been edited by CH!MP: Oct 15 2008, 11:37 AM

[slurpee]

Whats wrong with national pride, its about being proud of a national identity, things we share in commen and yeah they are specfic to the country, not everyone in every country shares the same culture.

There certainly are flaws with every nation but its not about celerbrating how we undermin minoritys or how we are better then everyone else its about celerbrating the things which unite us as a country, its about our shared identity.

Im very proud to be Austrailian but not because i beleave our goverments pollicys own everyone elses but because of the things that u and i and most Austrailians can all identify with; there isnt an exact rule of what those things are its that their are things which we do share in commen.

And.We.Are.Proud.Of.That.

p.s who cares if u scrunch up a flag, its still a flag, burning however is a bit differnt.

This post has been edited by slurpee: Oct 16 2008, 12:02 AM

[CaptainCalami...]

We have nothing in common with each other that we don't have in common with the whole world.

National pride is a myth, a farce and a lie.
Sports? Not everyone cares about them, but they're still Australian.
Kangaroos and wombats? Same deal.

Flags, anthems, etc.
They divide the world as much as they unite it.

[sky]

Patriotism gives certain people a sense of identity and a feeling of belonging to a community.
I don't see why it's a bad thing.
You may be referring to the extreme cases where individuals couple patriotism with racism.
Well, we all know that usually extreme is not great and it's important to keep in mind that extreme doesn't represent the majority.

[CH!MP]

We have nothing in common with each other that we don't have in common with the whole world.

I don't mean to be pedantic, but what do you mean here? I don't quite understand...do you honestly feel that alone? That you have as much in common with people in Australia than people in India for example? Believe it or not different countries have different cultures and basic beliefs/ways of doing things etc. I don't see how you can ignore the differing of histories around the world and the influence these histories have on certain areas and hence cultures.

National pride is a myth, a farce and a lie.
Sports? Not everyone cares about them, but they're still Australian.
Kangaroos and wombats? Same deal.

National pride can't simply be a lie or myth, because many people clearly feel national pride... But it's not as if there is some magical ideal everyone shares that could influence a "better" sense of nationalism.

Flags, anthems, etc.
They divide the world as much as they unite it.

Would you like the whole world to be a single nation? Exactly how united do you want us to be?

[CaptainCalami...]

I'm aware of cultural differences.
I do not feel alone, I feel as though I am part of something much larger than myself.

A world, in which all living things deserve respect.
Patriotism is simply the flipside of racism.

How can someone be worse than you, if you do not believe yourself to be better?
There is nothing wrong with having unique culture, but patriotism, as it is today, doesn't seem to have much to do with our actual culture.

First, what is Australian culture?
Is it sport? I hope not, because I could name more than a few people who are suddenly excluded.
Is it this so called "fair-go" society? (the one that doesn't exist)

What about America?
The Patriot Act is based on a phony idea of patriotism.

Patriotism isn't solely pride in your country, it's the belief that your country is better.
I think you'll find that what Robbie was saying is that Patriotism is a propaganda term.

[n0lite]

Patriotism isn't solely pride in your country, it's the belief that your country is better.
I think you'll find that what Robbie was saying is that Patriotism is a propaganda term.

Naw, bb, that's nationalism. Patriotism and nationalism are very different things. Same with stereotypes (koalas and whatnot) and national pride. They don't have much to do with each other, really. I personally think nationalism is one of the scummiest concepts out there, whereas patriotism is pretty much whatevs. It can be good or stupid or pretty much anything else (re: Southern Cross tattoos). I'll admit, it shits me when people get all ~*unique*~ and ~*deep*~ and start crapping on about they totes don't see culture or race, just the beauty of h00manity and we're all teh same and IT DUN MATTA IF UR BLAK OR WHITE. It's pretty stupid to assume that you have a comprehensive understanding of every single culture in the world. Patronizing, really.

Hmm, just realized that sounded like I was directing that at/having a go at CaptainCalamity. I'm totez not.

[CaptainCalami...]

Naw, bb, that's nationalism. Patriotism and nationalism are very different things. Same with stereotypes (koalas and whatnot) and national pride. They don't have much to do with each other, really. I personally think nationalism is one of the scummiest concepts out there, whereas patriotism is pretty much whatevs. It can be good or stupid or pretty much anything else (re: Southern Cross tattoos). I'll admit, it shits me when people get all ~*unique*~ and ~*deep*~ and start crapping on about they totes don't see culture or race, just the beauty of h00manity and we're all teh same and IT DUN MATTA IF UR BLAK OR WHITE. It's pretty stupid to assume that you have a comprehensive understanding of every single culture in the world. Patronizing, really.

Hmm, just realized that sounded like I was directing that at/having a go at CaptainCalamity. I'm totez not.

It's hardly patronizing, but patriotism, in all it's forms is always just the public face of racism.
However, I may be forced to glare at you if you accuse me of being falsly unique or deep.
Ever again.

[Fridgemagnet]

As n0lite was saying, patriotism and nationalism - patriotism is the belief that our country is great. This does not refer to the government, or specific people - it's like a web, sure sport is one of the binding factors, brings a lot of people together; there are plenty more strands to this web though, and everyone's got at least a couple of them in common. Maybe it's a regret for what happened to the aboriginal peoples. Some past character like Ned Kelly. Or something totally different.
The fact is, it's pointless to name things and say "is it this?", because it isn't any one thing. And yes, we have plenty in common with other nations out there, but that's no reason to rag on people being proud that they have something specific in common with a bunch of people here.

Nationalism, on the other hand, is the belief that we are better - and hence goes hand in hand with racism. Racism and patriotism (at least not any kind of patriotism I've seen) are not the same.

[n0lite]

patriotism, in all it's forms is always just the public face of racism.


No, it really isn't. I'm trying to think of a good analogy here but to be honest I can't, so I'm just going to go with something very lame.

Bob has a chocolate ice-cream. Linda has a vanilla ice-cream.

"Wow, I sure do love chocolate ice-cream," says Bob.

"Good for you, Bob! I also appreciate chocolate ice-cream, and I think it's great that you get so much pleasure out of devouring it. I'm currently eating a vanilla ice-cream. It's quite delicious," Linda replies.

"I'm happy for you, Linda, and I too can appreciate how appealing vanilla can be. Would you care for a lick of my ice-cream?"

"Thanks, Bob! You chocolate-lovers sure are nice. Want some of mine?"

"Why, yes please, Linda. Boy, you vanilla fans are just as sweet as your flavour of choice!"

The two friends sampled each other's ice-creams. They each appreciated the delicate flavouring and found it quite refreshing for a change.

"This is great," said Linda. "Although due to a range of factors - social, cultural and genetic - I prefer vanilla, but I think chocolate is pretty dandy too. I think it is in no way superior to vanilla. Everyone is entitled to their own flavour."

"I agree completely," replied Bob. "I'm so impressed that you have acknowledged the different flavors. In a lot of ways it would have been easier just to say that they tasted the same, but that would have been homogenizing the entire situation to suit yourself. Vanilla and chocolate are quite different, aren't they? I'd like to learn more about vanilla-flavoured foods. Could you teach me, Linda?"

"Sure," said Linda amicably. "It would be ridiculous to deny that ice-cream comes in different flavours. Of course it does! That is why ice-cream is so interesting and enjoyable. It would be rather boring if there was only one kind. Besides, I'm glad that you acknowledged my innate connection to vanilla instead of assuming that because you'd tried it a few times you were an expert."

"I would never do that," Bob said seriously. "That would be very presumptuous of me. Shall we sample some other flavours? This has been very thought-provoking, and now I am hungry."

"What a brilliant idea," Linda said happily. "We can appreciate all flavours, regardless of our own personal preference!"

"Shall we try caramel?"

"Certainly!"

They set off to the ice-cream parlour, only to be accosted by Leigh.

"Fuck you," Leigh said, glaring at their ice-creams. "Cookies n' cream is the best flavour. I like it, so therefore it is the best. All other flavours taste like shit." Leigh grabbed Bob and Linda's ice-creams and threw them on the ground.

"Leigh, that isn't fair," Linda sighed patiently. "It's great that you like cookies n' cream so much, and it's definitely a delicious flavour. But that doesn't mean any other ice-creams are inferior. Bob and I just had a very interesting conversation about all this. I don't suppose you'd care to come to the ice-cream parlour and join our discussion?"

"THE ICE-CREAM PARLOR? BUT THEY HAVE ALL KINDS OF RIDICULOUS FLAVOURS THERE. COOKIES AND CREAM IS A MINORITY!"

"Each flavour is represented equally," Bob said kindly. Leigh was a very sheltered person. "Which makes us all even. I bet you'd like caramel ice-cream."

Leigh went on a tangent about how cookies and cream is molecularly superior to all other flavours. Leigh sounded quite ridiculous. Bob and Linda edged cautiously away to enjoy more diverse ice-cream and further their discussion.

THE END.

This post has been edited by n0lite: Oct 20 2008, 08:50 AM

[CH!MP]

lol best analogy ever

[slurpee]

That made me lol so hard

p.s Cookies n Cream is the shit

This post has been edited by slurpee: Oct 21 2008, 12:37 AM